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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  January 8, 2014 8:00pm-9:01pm PST

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questioned because of these goos. >> this has been going on since 1988. if prosecutors are to be believed. and also what is most troubling according to the district attorney is that they took advantage of 9/11. so many of these guys allegedly said i was there when the planes hit. and according to district attorney vance there were nowhere near ground zero. >> just unbelievable. thank you, jonathan. >> chris hayes is up next. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. stunning developments today in the unfolding scandal surrounding new jersey governor chris christie, as documents obtained by the press show the governor's top deputies ordered lanes of traffic on the world's busiest bridge to be closed off in the new jersey town of ft. lee.
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a punitive retribution of the mayor of fort lee who had the gall not to endorse christie. you do not want to miss that. tonight a man once hailed as the presidential nominee is fighting for his political life. cancelling his one event today, giving no interviews and issuing a statement attempting to distance himself from the entire mess. one thing is for sure. just a few weeks ago, he was joking about the allegations, chris christie is not laughing now. >> major twist in the bridge gate controversy, rocking chris christie's inner circle. >> i've been reading some of these e-mails, they seem damning. >> the intrigue is intense political revenge, all sorts of allegations out there. >> imagine the following e-mail exchange as mark murray does. former senior white house
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adviser david plump to treasury, time for some irs audits on tea party groups, a treasury staffer responds, got it, how long until the pitchforks and torches came out and articles of impeachment were filed. today, we have concrete evidence that top officials in the chris christie administration ordered a massive four-day traffic jam in a new jersey town of fort lee in an apparent retaliation, the democratic mayor refused to endorse christie's re-election bid for governor. christie had previously laughed off the allegations. >> i worked the cones, actually. >> but in explosive documents obtained by the bergen record, it appears christie's inner circle was engaged in a stunning nixonian abuse of power, here's what happened. on august 13th, bridget ann kelly writes to david wildstein, a christie childhood friend. time for some traffic problems in fort lee. wildstein responds, got it, a few weeks later, on the first day of school, two of the three of fort lees access lanes to the george washington bridge, the busiest bridge in the world are suddenly closed for four days
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turning the entire town of fort lee into a parking lot. fort lee's mayor complains of the problem of getting kids to school, in response, the person who's identity is redacted writes to wildstein, is it wrong that i'm smiling? wildstein, no. the unknown texter responds, i feel badly about the kids, i guess. they are the children of buono voters. as in barbara buono, who lost this past election to christie. wildstein e-mails kelly, angered the traffic wasn't worse, the new york side gave fort lee back all three lanes this morning, we are appropriately going nuts, sampson helping us to resaliate. david sampson another christie appointee to the authority. after being forwarded an e-mail, one of his deputy chiefs of staff, it will be a tough november.
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it's fine. the mayor's an idiot. fort lee's mayor is croatian not serbian. when chris christie was asked about the lane closures in december, he scoffed at the allegations. >> i worked the cones, actually, mack. unbeknownst to everybody, i was the guy out there, i was in overalls and a hat, but i actually was the guy working the cones out there, you really are not serious with that question? >> but then he went on to express his displeasure, not about the lanes being closed but that fort lee has three lanes. >> i didn't know fort lee got three dedicated lanes until all this stuff happened. i sat in that traffic before i was governor, the fact that one town has three lanes dedicated to it? that kind of gets me sauced.
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>> on december 13th, bill beroni resigns. that day christie said, he's merely bothered by the resignations. >> i'm bothered, probably would be the better words. i was bothered by it, i've made it clear to everybody on my senior staff, that if anyone had any knowledge about this, they needed to come forward to me and tell me about it, they all assured me they don't. >> chris christie should be more than bothered. this is just the beginning. on the first day the lanes were closed, kelly asked wildstein if sockledge's calls had been returned. the question now is, how many other people have been retaliated against, how many people have been rewarded and how far up does this go? >> late this afternoon, governor christie released a statement saying, what i've seen for the
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first time today is unacceptable, not only was i misled by a member of my staff, but this completely inappropriate unsanctioned conduct was made without my knowledge. one thing is clear, this type of behavior is unacceptable, i will not tolerate it. people will be held responsible for their actions. joining me now, to discuss that is mayor of fort lee new jersey. i want to read an exchange that happened in the documents we obtained today, and just get your reaction, and confirm that you wrote this. this is a text you sent to one of governor christie's appointees, we should talk, someone needs to tell me the recent traffic debacle was not punitive in nature. the last four reporters that contacted me suggest the people they are speaking with, absolutely believe it to be
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punishment, try as i may to dispel these rumors, i am having a tough time. a private face to face would be important to me, perhaps someone can enlighten me as to the errors of my ways, let me know if you'll give me ten minutes. did you, in fact, write that? >> i did. >> and did you get a meeting? >> i did not, i didn't get a response. at one point in there changes they talk about silence. while this traffic jam is happening in your city, what are you doing and what response are you getting from christie's people? >> zero, we're getting zero, chris, understand that from the moment that this happened, we went through an absolute incessant effort, tireless effort to contact somebody at the port authority, to contact the people we've always been designated and assigned to handle problems here in fort lee, the same people i develop relationships with during the course of the six years as mayor. we called, i think 20, 30 times, i was calling people's cell
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phones, the cell phones that i had, sending text mails because it was maddening, it was maddening because we had families that were looking for emergency services to respond to calls, to 9/11 calls, that -- calls that would take three minutes were taking 11, 12 minutes, there was someone that was missing, they couldn't conduct that investigation properly. on top of that, we had thousands of kids that were late for the first day of school, then they were late for the rest of the week as well. it was maddening, we made an incredible effort to contact someone. >> so when you're getting stonewalled, you're getting radio silence. what do you start to think is happening? it seems from the texts that we got our hands on today, that you, yourself didn't want to believe it was possible that this was just political punishment for refusing to endorse the governor. >> if you've known me for 30 seconds, you know there's not an ounce of venom in my system, i
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don't think, and i try to find the best in people. i automatically, my own instincts automatically dismissed the prospect that is political retribution, who would close down lanes to the busiest bridge in the world to get to me. i never viewed myself as being that important, the governor himself said i'm not on his radar nor am i in his rolodex, i'm thinking, how could this possibly be? now reading the e-mails and the texts that we see today, certainly it is the case, and i'm embarrassed for those people. >> what is your response to the governor trying to distance himself to this. the fact that there is a smoking gun. that comes from one of his deputy chiefs of staff. how far up do you think this goes? >> everybody asks me that question, i'm not here to speculate, nor will i speculate, i will tell you, though, it's gotten closer and closer as time transpires. i'm not rooting for an e-mail to surface that's specifically has the governor authorizing this
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retribution. i'm not, it's not my nature, but i will tell you, it's -- the credibility level is getting reduced and reduced and reduced as this story continues to move on. let me also explain one other thing, chris. a lot of folks, including your group and everybody else that's been calling me for interviews over the last three or four months, i didn't enter this political fray, i never viewed it to be a benefit to the residents of fort lee, they've been through enough. there were various agencies that were seeking facts, conducting investigations to make sure we got to the bottom of this, to make sure the people responsible suffered appropriate consequence, and hopefully incorporate reform so this doesn't happen again. but i never entered it, because it didn't make sense. let everyone do their job and we'll figure it out. now reading the e-mails that i read and seeing the slanderous comments, i abdicate my responsibility for the people
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i'm sworn to protect if i don't enter this debate about i'm embarrassed for the entire state of new jersey, because it sets us back, and we're guaranteed to be the brunt of the next 50 years of political jokes, quite frankly, after this behavior, we deserve it. >> do you have a relationship with the governor? have you spoke tonight governor? has he reached out to you, has he apologized? >> no. >> have you talked about what happened in your city? >> no, no, the governor hasn't reached out to me. again, i'm not on his radar, why would he? i've met him several times, i've broken bread with him several times. i think his recollection of me is better than he's saying. don't reach out for me, don't do me any favors, don't reach out to me, you need to reach out to the families who were waiting for ambulances taking three times longer to get there. you need to reach out to the
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thousands of families who couldn't get their kids to school. and you need to reach out to my chief fiscal officer so we could get a reimbursement check from trenton, that's what we need to do. don't apologize to me, i don't want an apology. >> i have to read this to you and get your response, it was one of the most vicious little jabs in thereafter following an article about the traffic jam, we've had david who resigned say, it will be a tough november for this little serbian. do you have a response to that? >> david wildstein deserves a butt kicking, sorry, there i said it. how you could intentionally do this -- how you could intentionally do this to a
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community that had to endure as much as it has to endure on a daily basis. i'm sworn to protect us, to make sure the quality of our lives are as high as they possibly could be, and i'm sworn to make sure our health, safety and welfare is protected every day, we do a great job here, especially considering the host community to the bridge. let me tell you, we're relied upon by 40, 50, 60 communities on a daily basis. to get to and from work, doctor's appointments, what have you. this is not a fort lee issue. there's no dedicated lanes to fort lee, i'd love to have them, if you're offering, yes maybe that's the way of making up for all of this. >> why did you not endorse governor christie back during the re-election, which apparently was contributing to this. wouldn't you endorse governor christie if you were to run for president? >> i didn't endorse governor
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christie, because i am a follower, believer, and supporter of democratic principles, okay? simple as that. >> i didn't support governor christie, because at least me, this city, i seek no other higher political office. i'm born and raised in fort lee, only ever wanted to serve in a leadership capacity to try to help the people i grew up with, so i've been blessed with the privilege to serve as its mayor, this is not a stepping stone for me, if i was looking at this as a stepping stone, maybe i'd think of other ways to do it, not me, i'm loyal to the democratic party, proud of what we've accomplished on a county level, state level, i'm proud of that, proud of my legislative delegation here, we've done phenomenal things in fort lee, that truly is the tragedy here, we're in the middle of a renaissance, we're in the middle of a billion dollar redevelopment, we are arguably the most progressive community in the state of new jersey run by this idiot, and we should be
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applauded for that, not penalized for it. >> mayor mark sockledge, thank you for your time tonight. >> we will talk about the implications this will have. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap. did you run into traffic? no, just had to stop by the house to grab a few things. you stopped by the house? uh-huh. yea. alright, whenever you get your stuff, run upstairs, get cleaned up for dinner. you leave the house in good shape? yea. yea, of course. ♪ [ sportscaster talking on tv ]
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in our interview just now, the mayor of fort lee, new jersey talked about how emergency vehicles were caught in the traffic by the shut down lanes. ems responses were delayed in at least four emergency situations, including one in which a 91-year-old woman lay unconscious. that lady has reportedly passed since then. [ julie ] i've got to credit my mom. to help me become an olympian, she was pretty much okay
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i want to elect the next president, those are the words of roger ales, according to a blockbuster book set for release january 21st. ale encouraged christie to jump into the race, previously invited christie to dinner in his compound. shocking revelations received almost no coverage on fox news. here's what ales network gave its viewers. >> suggests that an aide to the new jersey governor knew about an apparent revenge plot against a mayor who refused to endorse the governor for re-election. >> but the e-mails are out today. they're out there, if you want to google them, you can. if he decides to run for president, they'll end up in campaign ads. >> those e-mails, just google
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them. that does not mean their right as a whole is being silent. the right is not so cozy with the new jersey governor. it seems as if the political thug mentality is not just limited to the supporters, as the deputy chief of staff has been busted. ben shapiro tweeting, christie's actions may be impeachable not just indicative of the 2016 run. the federalist, eight reasons why chris christie's traffic scandal could cause problems, it's the corruption, stupid. you don't attack kids or other people. we'll have more democratic reaction in a moment. it was a few months ago, the media coordination of christie had his peak. >> can he win over the tea party and unite republicans? >> is his landslide victory in new jersey, the first step toward a 2016 presidential run, and will he be the savior for a
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divided gop. >> the governor may have his sights set on higher office. and a lot of republicans i've spoken with say, you are already laying the groundwork to run for president. >> the cover of time calls him the gop's elephant in the room. >> the politics lead ladies and gentlemen, we have a republican front-runner, sort of. >> i know that if we can do this in trenton, new jersey, maybe the folks in washington, d.c., should tune in their tv's right now, see how it's done. >> joining me now, debbie wasserman-schultz, the governor put out a statement today saying, i had no knowledge of this, and people are going to be held accountable. good enough for you? >> well, it took him seven hours
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today to put out that statement. and what i find unbelievable is that if that's his position, that he just learned like everyone else today when those e-mails were revealed that his closest top staff had direct involvements in this scandal, why wouldn't you have been -- put that statement out right from the beginning? i mean, seems pretty simple? . i -- i just can't believe that chris christie is not answering questions. these questions that he's been refusing to answer for months, you know, at first he laughed, tried to laugh it off, and now the joke's, the joke's over and the gig is up it's time to face the music and ask the questions that most new jersey ans deserve answers to. which is why would the governor of their state shut down three lanes of traffic on the george washington bridge, cut off people's access to first responders in an emergency, trap school children on school buses, all in the name of exacting
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political retribution against a mayor that would not endorse him. >> i have a lot of questions about what's going on. one question is, okay, if the governor said he had nothing -- this is the first he's learning of all this, when two of your appointees resign from the port authority, what did you think they were resigning for? why are you resigning? well, i don't know, it seems like a good time to go, i mean, presumably there was some conversation there, right? >> you would think that he would be interested enough to get to the bottom of the source of their resignations and what would prompt them, when someone decides to leave their job, that's a significant position. the other thing that i think is really important about this is, chris christie's judgment. i mean, when you're talking about someone in the position of authority like he is, as the governor of new jersey, who he surrounds himself with, the top staff he's chosen goes right to
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the core of his judgment. he created an allowed a culture in his office let's set aside whether he knew, that will probably come out if that smoke turns into fire. but how is it that he has such poor judgment that he would create a culture in his office that would allow his staff to believe that conduct and that retribution was acceptable. >> here's the most damning parts of that e-mail exchange, which is not most necessarily the smoking gun of the plan, they said nasty things about this mayor who committed no graver sin then refusing to endorse someone from another party. everyone the reporters talked to think this is political retribution, which gives you a little window into the kind of operation running in the state of new jersey, the assumptions people on the ground in new jersey had about how the
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governor conducted himself in office, that a traffic jam happens and people's first thought is, well, clearly this is political punishment for you crossing governor christie. >> well, obviously, those feelings and that response is the result of their interact with the governor and his track record. people make presumptions based on the experience they have, chris christie has spent years trying to present himself as the straight shooter he is. he's done nothing like tell it like did is all through this scandal. >> thank you. >> thanks, chris. a tid bit hidden in bill gates' bio that totally puts everything he says in his new administration book into context, it's extremely revealing, you want to stick around for that.
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the president of the united states and the general secretary of the central committee of the communist party of the soviet union. >> back in 1985, ronald reagan was considering whether to take seriously the new soviet leader, mikhail gorbachev. he intended to open the soviet union to the west. and maybe just maybe ending the cold war. it was a fiercely fought debate
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inside the u.s. government. one of the opponents for working with gorbachev was in the government. we should not trust gorbachev, we are losing the fight. we are getting a clearer view of the person we may be facing. reagan did work with gorbachev, the cold war ended and the entire global map was changed. reagan was better off for it. officials dolling out what was bad advice on a monumentally important issue, was robert gates, who in his forthcoming tell all book had this to say about joe biden, i think he's been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy issue over the past four decades. strong words from the guy who was wrong about ending the cold war. as i sat there, i thought, the president doesn't trust his commander, doesn't like karzai, for him, it's all about getting out. today, jay carney was forced to respond. >> what weight americans should give to his description of joe biden as someone who's been
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wrong on every major foreign policy matter. >> i would reiterate that the president and the rest of us here disagree with that assessment. >> joining me now wesley clark, a senior fellow at ucla. let's start with what's getting the most traction, which is the most damning, he's focused on getting out. if you look at that, he was mistrustful of the military leadership, that had not done a fantastic job of managing the situation. i'm not sure what's so damning
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about that. >> i think you raise some points there. the president was given a really tough situation, this isn't a high school football team and he's not a coach, he's making the best of a lot of bad possible decisions, he's having to live with, is he uncomfortable, he's probably really uncomfortable, i think all americans should be happy that's the kind of commander in chief we have for the armed forces he recognizes that a lot of rah-rah and let's get on with this team was not going to change the situation on the ground in afghanistan, he made the best of the situation he could. gates says president obama made good decisions, the one to get osama bin laden was a courageous decision.
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>> the excerpts that i've seen, he says every major decision the president was right on, he praises the actual decisions, he phobe uses on the tension between the president and the military leadership. as someone who's been on the inside of that next us, it seems it's natural there is some inherent tension. we have a civilian control of the military, there are going to be times when the senior officials at the pentagon want something and the white house doesn't and that will create tension. >> absolutely. >> when you're the secretary of defense and you bring an option to the president, the president is going to look at you and say, you brought me this option, i expect you to deliver on it. he's not going to say, it's up to me, no, you're the secretary
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of defense. you're in the chain of command. i brought you this decision, but you are the guy executing it, you're going to feel a tremendous amount of pressure for doing something like this. there's always a lot of pushing and shoving going on, everybody wants to do the best job. the president has to sort that out, when you come out of that pressure cooker, and it's all -- you have a lot of thoughts going through your head, when i found out, it took me a long time to unwind, i wrote a book, but -- did was therapeutic, but it was years after that, before i could express it in a few words what i had gone through. it takes a long time to disgust something like this. >> when i used to read about cable news before i was in cable news, i wonder someone who's been on the inside of some of these meetings, it seems there's a tendency to do score settling anyone watching this program has a boss or a co-worker they would love to burn after they left. how much credence do you put in this stuff.
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>> i think you put some credence in the performance, that's what you should be looking at, not the process, but the performance. the truth is, the president came in, he was going to get us out of iraq, he did. he's going to do the best he could, to get rid of al qaeda, and osama bin laden he did that, he's trying to get us out of afghanistan i'm really uncomfortable being over there. i'm glad i'm not in a position where i have to order young men to go to afghanistan, i think it's a tough mission for the united states of america i know what we're trying to do, but it's not a football game. >> i was comforted by that, that he was focused on getting out. >> thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> after voting against extending long term unemployment benefits for over a million people. marco rubio gave a speech where he told everyone how much he cares about poor people how the war on poverty became the war on
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today senator marco rubio, marked the 50 th anniversary of the war on poverty which ushered in programs that millions of people rely on today, like medicare, medicaid and social security. >> our current president and his liberal allies, they propose to address -- let's spend more on these failed programs and increase the minimum wage to 10.10. this, really? this is their solution to what the president has called the defining issue of our time? >> i see what you did there, marco rubio. today you said how to beat poverty. yesterday you voted against extending long term unemployment insurance, making it harder for 1 million people to get the chance to improve their lives.
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we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ of the dusty basement at 1406 35th street the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall off roble avenue. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪ just one day ago, marco rubio was voting against extending long term unemployment benefits for 1.3 million people suffering through some of the coldest temperatures in decades, today a florida republican went
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before the cameras to brand himself as a man concerned with poverty. rubio's speech came 50 years to the day after president lyndon johnson uttered these words. >> this administration today here and now declares unconditional war on poverty in america. rubio used the anniversary of johnson's dark declaration for announcing his own words. he declared johnson's war on poverty a failure. >> for 50 years now we have tried big government and too many people have remained trap in despair. >> that might sound familiar, it's a refrain republicans have been offering for more than a generation. >> friends some years ago, the federal government declared war on poverty and poverty won. dependency has become the one enduring heirloom passed from generation to the next. >> an article among
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conservatives, we fought a war on poverty and poverty won, it's not true. one recent study found when you take into account government intervention, the fraction of americans with incomes below the poverty line has dropped. 47% in 1967 to 11% today. some good news in rubio's remarks today, he's joined other republicans in at least talking about poverty. maybe misleading people about the legacy of the war, but at the very least the polite of the close to 50 million americans living in poverty right now, is for the first time at the center of the national conversation. joining me now is my colleague reverend al sharpton, founder and president of the action network. what do you think are the misconceptions, what do people
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get wrong on the war of poverty? >> it was not successful, it did bring a lot of relief to millions of americans all over the country of all races, when you look at today those that claim -- i'm talking about employers when i say those, that the problem is skills set, you have things on the war on poverty like manpower training development that train people for employment and move them toward employment, the other misconception that was outright wrong is the 50 years, he acted like this was one 50-year stretch on poverty. lyndon johnson made his speech in '64, by '67 they had begun taking a lot of those resources and putting it into the vietnam war. i became director of operation bread basket the year dr. king was killed, i was a kid, and they had a tent city dr. king proposed, we were down and ralph
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abernathy who succeeded dr. king that i was being mentored by, were fighting then because they were saying the money shouldn't go to vietnam, it should stay on the war on poverty. then nixon became president and began killing those programs. after him, you had a brief four years of jimmy carter, reagan, bush, this has not been a 50-year war against poverty, republicans were in charge most of the last 50 years. >> mlk in 1967 says, it seems as if there was a real promise of hope for the poor, there were experiments, hopes, new beginnings. then came the buildup to
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vietnam, and i watched the program become eviscerated. one of the things he says is experiment. marco rubio said, we're not letting local places experiment and try new things, the whole spirit of the office of economic opportunity was precisely that. >> and they were the ones that dismantled it, the fathers of rubio, the fathers of the civil rights movement, they dismantled it, and they dismantled it running against the welfare queen, demonizing and denigrating poor people, was not a 50 year stretch, we had the war against the war on poverty much longer than we had the war on poverty, the shortest war in american history, was the war on poverty. >> do you think it is a sign -- there's two ways to interpret the rubio speech today, one is that it's a step in the right direction, in so far as
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republicans believe they need to give this kind of speech, the other is this is laughable hypocrisy. what's your reaction? >> both. i think it is a sign that president obama, the first time since lyndon johnson has made this a central part of the political discussion with his speech. the president obama speech about the inequality is the challenge of our time. which we have not heard a president say since johnson 50 years ago and i think that when we see the republicans now trying to do it where they have it both ways and they distort history is laughable, other than it's so sad you have 50 million americans today that does need what president obama's trying to do, what we must do now is generate that kind of movement around that inequality, which king died trying to do and some
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of those with him tried to continue, but they ran right into the nixon, reagan, bush backlash, which was the majority of the last half century. >> is there political appetite in the constituency on the right in the republican party for any kind of determined effort to get something done about poverty? >> i don't know if there's a political appetite among the republican rank and file, but there's a political need, because many of them are living in poverty. many that mr. rubio and others voted against the unemployment benefits are themselves victimized by it, many of them that they are trying to stop, take $40 billion out of food stamps are themselves recipients of food stamps. i think the challenges that we can explain to them, that we're not talking about somebody
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somewhere else, them, we're talking about you, us, we're talking about america, that's what the president's speech was, and that's what we on the ground have to build a movement around. >> reverend al sharpton, thanks for your time. >> thank you. >> you can catch his show weekdays 6:00 p.m. the changing face of america is coming monday at 8:00 eastern. yn with the plan but with less energy, moodiness, and a low sex drive, i had to do something. i saw my doctor. a blood test showed it was low testosterone, not age. we talked about axiron the only underarm low t treatment that can restore t levels to normal in about two weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant, and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer, worsening prostate symptoms, decreased sperm count, ankle, feet or body swelling,
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joining me now avik roy, author of how medicaid failed the poor. do you buy into this idea that marco rubio said, and paul, there's a war on poverty fail? >> yeah, so like, republicans -- republicans laugh at progressives who want to turn texas political. and there is a serious agenda
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and restlessness among conservatives who want to address these issues. >> do you think that's true? >> no. >> why not. >> first of all, i don't think we had a war, we had some skirmishes. but by 1968 all of these programs were under attack, and in fact we saw by 1981, $10 billion alone just out of the job training programs, so i'm still waiting for the war. >> you mentioned $10 billion, we spent $916 billion a year. >> and they've been remarkably successful? >> some of them, some of them not there's an enormous inefficiency. >> what's the inefficiency. >> in theory, the amount of money should eliminate poverty in america, it doesn't, because there's so much inefficiency. >> here's the thing, i hear this sometimes, i want to play this
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out. >> let's say, we've said, okay, let's come together, write everyone a check. get rid of the welfare bureaucracy. $30,000, here you go. the idea that rank and file republicans that any republicans in office right now would support that is crazy. >> crazy is not the word i would use, but there is a tension between the libertarian right for whom all programs are immoral. and there's a progressive side which says all welfare programs are good, regardless of whether they're inefficient or not. >> no one makes that argument. >> plenty of people make that argument. >> you're speaking as someone who's in center circles. there are interesting debates that happen among those peoples, you included. about these sort of things, the point is, there's got to be, when a republican is elected, right? that's not the thing that his political constituency wants him to do. >> you go to an oncologist with cancer and the oncologist says, chemotherapy, you go into
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remission and five years later maybe you have another bout with cancer, no one says you failed. that chemotherapy was extremely inefficient. the debate on poverty is the same. literally the poverty rate went down from 20% to 12%, and yet we still talk about the failure of these programs, it's crazy. >> there was this concerted political effort. the safety net programs extended social security, medicaid, medicare. those exist now, and when you take them together they reduce the after government poverty rate by half, right? >> the big thing is also concerted domestic political attention to the problem, the problem must be solved. >> absolutely, when forbes approached me, they asked me, what do you want to do?
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i said, i want to make forbes citadel for the anti-poverty movement within conservatism, that's a movement that's growing, it's a movement that paul ryan and marco rubio. >> you can laugh, but it's a serious effort -- >> i'm not laughing. i feel like i've seen this rodeo before, for example, there's jack kemp, mentored paul ryan, that was his big idol. i saw it with newt gingrich, i don't feel it cashes out in the politics. >> that's not how they win primaries. you have to find politicians who are willing to transcend the primary voter. i have an agenda that speaks to all voters. >> there should be bipartisan
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effort. it's true it's important we're talking about it more if we're really going to attack poverty we should look at what works, we look at the five countries that have poverty rates below 10% that spend a lot more on these programs. >> a lot more. >> why are republicans trying to cut food stamps. before you give me any speeches, why l let's just not cut food stamps. >> it's quadrupled in the last ten years. let's have anti-poverty programs that address poverty. let's give them the cash. >> i'd love to run the experiment where we're just giving people cash transfers, i
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can't begin to imagine the fox news coverage of that program. thank you both that is all in for this evening, the rachel maddow show starts now. i'm excited to race upstairs and watch your show for the next hour. thank you. we've been waiting for this day for a long time, this is going to be amazing. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. that's very nice of chris to say, i have to say, i think the show is going to be a doozy, the story we've been covering from the beginning, before anyone else was covering it has just become a very big story. this is the local traffic column in the bergen record newspaper. it's about driving in and around new jersey. a lot of the ink in this column is devoted to the daily battle of trying to be a commuter who travels from new jersey to new


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